Great read. I will definitely check out the book aswell. I'm so tired of people undermining just how insanely people cam be misogynistic and racist on the Internet and GET AWAY WITH IT. Just here, on substack, I've come across an abundance of incels which left my jaw dropped. I genuinely couldn't comprehend how these people could think such things AND POST THEM?? Not just that they would get encouraging comments too, subscribers over 100s. I've struggled a LOT with online misogyny and racism because I play video games (I even wrote about this) and that alone was a cultural shock to me. It was even more surprising when I found out that outside the gaming community no one even knows how bad the misogyny gets. The scale of misogyny on there literally goes from "go back to the kitchen" to rape threats. Sometimes the two are said IN FHE SAMW SENTENCE. And I've always been very loud about these issues becahse I couldn't understand how one was suppose to ignore thus behaviour and worse, GET USE TO IT just because it was from across a screen. People would tell me the men in there aren't being serious. But to send rape and death threats in such a detailed way?? That's not okay even if unserious. That's crazy and dangerous. It's dangerous for women to get use to such behaviour and comments. Just the other day I watched a documentary by Stephanie Soo on her podcast Rotten Mangos about a huge CP/torture ring going on on TELEGRAM!!!! There were 100s of victims, 1000s of perpetrators. All of them men. All of them online. The harm they caused is indescribable. And why was the case no taken seriously in the beginning? Because it was online. Can you believe that? We really need to stop down playing the sheer amount of effect social media has and start treating incels and psychos on the Internet for what they are. Psychos. Thank you so much for writing this and shedding light on this matter. Very well written and explained, I hope more people read this and understand. ♡
tysm for your comment! 🤍 it is crazy how much these people get away with it just because it’s online. I don’t know how it’s not taken more seriously, as if we are not living in a digital age where online comments and threats lead to real life harm like I wrote about in the section of real men posting horrible stuff about women and then going out and killing them. the gaming community is really bad, I feel like that should definitely get more attention as well. it’s so normalized and if you speak up about it, so many men will just tell you to mute them or turn your mic off, as if that solves the problem. if we just turn off our headsets, the men will still continue to call women such derogatory names and issue rape threats. if they’re not fought back against, they will still do it.
Exactly!! Muting them doesn't fix anything. A lot of times men start throwing the game and doing things to mess up your game. Mass report you for random things and sometimes even get you banned. I've had men find my INSTAGRAM and send rape threats in the comments. Muting them or ignoring them will never be the answer. And it's even worse because when you don't wanna talk in vc you're male friends call you dramatic. That "it can't be that bad". I wish women didn't have to explain and JUSTIFY their fear to these 'good' men just because it's unimaginable foe them. Like that alone speaks for how much women suffer at the hands of men that most 'good' and 'safe' men can't even comprehend fhe things that have happend to us so much it doesn't even surprise us anymore. And ofc, thank YOU for writing this. I'm so glad people are talking about the absolutely insane men sitting on every social media app and targeting women for just existing AND getting away with it because "it's just some troll, don't worry about it!!".
right, women shouldn’t have to justify why they fear talking in VC or even fear playing with men in the first place. they will go to such lengths just because of their hatred for women and honestly anyone who’s not a cis, straight male. I’m glad I chose this topic to write about because it seems especially imperative with all the recent comments from men on this app harassing women. agreed, they shouldn’t be seen as “just trolls” they should be regarding as real, harmful men.
omg immediate sub, I read this book too and completely agree!! I’m 25 so i was actually playing games on my dad’s xbox around the time gamergate was happening and it’s scary to think how close to it all i was the whole time!
I first went on an incel forum in 2017 and it was as horrifying as everything you mention in your article. at the time I remember explaining the concept to people in my life, none of whom had heard of incels. even now, 7 and a half years later, I'm frequently shocked to discover that people really just don't know about the incel phenomenon at all. and I'm not sure how much can be done to tackle it when, not only do many not see it as a real problem/threat, but many don't know it exists at all.
thank you for your comment! I am really shocked as well that this isn’t talked about more. I feel like I have barely even heard of incels before reading this chapter, especially not the violent misogyny they perpetuate. it definitely needs more attention
I can't remember how I found out about it, but I had to do my own deep dive at the time because it just literally wasn't getting talked about/written about at all. and I feel like unfortunately dedicated nonfiction books aren't going to be enough to bring it into mainstream knowledge, but at least people are gradually becoming more aware!!
i remember doing my own research into incel and mgtow communities and being so disheartened… and people will say that “misandrists” are anywhere near as dangerous as incels and misogynists have proven to be. thank you for introducing this book to me!
god I don’t know how people can think misandry is even close to misogyny when communities like this exist. no problem!! I feel like it should be more widely read
i loved this book - in the sense that it made me irrevocably angry at the world - so much so that i very nearly wrote my dissertation on incels and how they use language to indoctrinate young boys. it’s a very real and scary subject but you wrote about it in such a cool, calm, collected way (which i know is very difficult thing to do with topics like this). i hope you enjoy the rest of the book and i would definitely check out ‘fix the system not the women’ by laura bates too (it’s also enraging hahah) !!!
thank you!! I tried my best to not let myself get so angry lolll 😭 I feel like I def will like the rest of the book! putting that other one on my tbr right away 🫣
Really insightful and informative, Liv. You write so clearly and maintain your calm- I normally end up ranting and raving whenever I try to write about this topic. Another book you might enjoy is ‘Not all Dead White Men’ by Donna Zuckerberg (yes, Mark’s sister). It’s about misogyny and racism in the incel community, specifically about their use of Classics to promote these beliefs. Very interesting book
thank you!! it was really challenging to not just go off on a rant about this stuff lol😅 that book sounds really interesting! I will def look into it ty for the recommendation! 🤍
this book was so informative but so harrowing, i had to take little breaks from reading it .
omg same. the incel chapter was especially hard to get through
Great read. I will definitely check out the book aswell. I'm so tired of people undermining just how insanely people cam be misogynistic and racist on the Internet and GET AWAY WITH IT. Just here, on substack, I've come across an abundance of incels which left my jaw dropped. I genuinely couldn't comprehend how these people could think such things AND POST THEM?? Not just that they would get encouraging comments too, subscribers over 100s. I've struggled a LOT with online misogyny and racism because I play video games (I even wrote about this) and that alone was a cultural shock to me. It was even more surprising when I found out that outside the gaming community no one even knows how bad the misogyny gets. The scale of misogyny on there literally goes from "go back to the kitchen" to rape threats. Sometimes the two are said IN FHE SAMW SENTENCE. And I've always been very loud about these issues becahse I couldn't understand how one was suppose to ignore thus behaviour and worse, GET USE TO IT just because it was from across a screen. People would tell me the men in there aren't being serious. But to send rape and death threats in such a detailed way?? That's not okay even if unserious. That's crazy and dangerous. It's dangerous for women to get use to such behaviour and comments. Just the other day I watched a documentary by Stephanie Soo on her podcast Rotten Mangos about a huge CP/torture ring going on on TELEGRAM!!!! There were 100s of victims, 1000s of perpetrators. All of them men. All of them online. The harm they caused is indescribable. And why was the case no taken seriously in the beginning? Because it was online. Can you believe that? We really need to stop down playing the sheer amount of effect social media has and start treating incels and psychos on the Internet for what they are. Psychos. Thank you so much for writing this and shedding light on this matter. Very well written and explained, I hope more people read this and understand. ♡
tysm for your comment! 🤍 it is crazy how much these people get away with it just because it’s online. I don’t know how it’s not taken more seriously, as if we are not living in a digital age where online comments and threats lead to real life harm like I wrote about in the section of real men posting horrible stuff about women and then going out and killing them. the gaming community is really bad, I feel like that should definitely get more attention as well. it’s so normalized and if you speak up about it, so many men will just tell you to mute them or turn your mic off, as if that solves the problem. if we just turn off our headsets, the men will still continue to call women such derogatory names and issue rape threats. if they’re not fought back against, they will still do it.
Exactly!! Muting them doesn't fix anything. A lot of times men start throwing the game and doing things to mess up your game. Mass report you for random things and sometimes even get you banned. I've had men find my INSTAGRAM and send rape threats in the comments. Muting them or ignoring them will never be the answer. And it's even worse because when you don't wanna talk in vc you're male friends call you dramatic. That "it can't be that bad". I wish women didn't have to explain and JUSTIFY their fear to these 'good' men just because it's unimaginable foe them. Like that alone speaks for how much women suffer at the hands of men that most 'good' and 'safe' men can't even comprehend fhe things that have happend to us so much it doesn't even surprise us anymore. And ofc, thank YOU for writing this. I'm so glad people are talking about the absolutely insane men sitting on every social media app and targeting women for just existing AND getting away with it because "it's just some troll, don't worry about it!!".
right, women shouldn’t have to justify why they fear talking in VC or even fear playing with men in the first place. they will go to such lengths just because of their hatred for women and honestly anyone who’s not a cis, straight male. I’m glad I chose this topic to write about because it seems especially imperative with all the recent comments from men on this app harassing women. agreed, they shouldn’t be seen as “just trolls” they should be regarding as real, harmful men.
omg immediate sub, I read this book too and completely agree!! I’m 25 so i was actually playing games on my dad’s xbox around the time gamergate was happening and it’s scary to think how close to it all i was the whole time!
thank you!!🤍 and yeah I can’t imagine! that’s crazy
I first went on an incel forum in 2017 and it was as horrifying as everything you mention in your article. at the time I remember explaining the concept to people in my life, none of whom had heard of incels. even now, 7 and a half years later, I'm frequently shocked to discover that people really just don't know about the incel phenomenon at all. and I'm not sure how much can be done to tackle it when, not only do many not see it as a real problem/threat, but many don't know it exists at all.
thank you for your comment! I am really shocked as well that this isn’t talked about more. I feel like I have barely even heard of incels before reading this chapter, especially not the violent misogyny they perpetuate. it definitely needs more attention
I can't remember how I found out about it, but I had to do my own deep dive at the time because it just literally wasn't getting talked about/written about at all. and I feel like unfortunately dedicated nonfiction books aren't going to be enough to bring it into mainstream knowledge, but at least people are gradually becoming more aware!!
yes I’m glad there’s more awareness now, and I agree, it would probably have to go viral on some social media app to really get it out there lol
i remember doing my own research into incel and mgtow communities and being so disheartened… and people will say that “misandrists” are anywhere near as dangerous as incels and misogynists have proven to be. thank you for introducing this book to me!
god I don’t know how people can think misandry is even close to misogyny when communities like this exist. no problem!! I feel like it should be more widely read
i loved this book - in the sense that it made me irrevocably angry at the world - so much so that i very nearly wrote my dissertation on incels and how they use language to indoctrinate young boys. it’s a very real and scary subject but you wrote about it in such a cool, calm, collected way (which i know is very difficult thing to do with topics like this). i hope you enjoy the rest of the book and i would definitely check out ‘fix the system not the women’ by laura bates too (it’s also enraging hahah) !!!
thank you!! I tried my best to not let myself get so angry lolll 😭 I feel like I def will like the rest of the book! putting that other one on my tbr right away 🫣
Really insightful and informative, Liv. You write so clearly and maintain your calm- I normally end up ranting and raving whenever I try to write about this topic. Another book you might enjoy is ‘Not all Dead White Men’ by Donna Zuckerberg (yes, Mark’s sister). It’s about misogyny and racism in the incel community, specifically about their use of Classics to promote these beliefs. Very interesting book
thank you!! it was really challenging to not just go off on a rant about this stuff lol😅 that book sounds really interesting! I will def look into it ty for the recommendation! 🤍